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    Inicio > Historias > Losing my religion (the subject of religion in Spanish schools)

    Losing my religion (the subject of religion in Spanish schools)

    As anything related to religion (or to the government, for that matter), this matter has raised heckles among the spanish blogosphere; not so much in the english-speaking blogs and journals. I found this brief in a confessional website (but it's not too clear to me what exactly is that confession see this comment for a brief ideary of the site).
    In a couple of words, the government, among a Quality law for non-university teaching, has created a "non-confessional" religion subject, which will include history of religions, and things like that, and that subject will count towards GPA and other academic averages. Before that, there was no alternative to confessional religious teaching, so that the choice was going to class for a while (and sitting for the respecive exam) or doing nothing.
    Despite that, around 80% of parents chose confessional religion teaching (mostly catholic); that is the main reason given by the government for this ruling (which will be enforced next year). The opposers have several reasons, ranging to their outright opposition to any kind of religious teaching in public schools, to the fact that religion has been given more hours.
    By next year, there will be new elections, and if the subject is not settled, the new government might oppose this rule. But, in any case, it's being argued back and forth all over the blogosphere, notable in my spanish blog (which you can translate in your favorite online translator)

    2003-06-30 15:31 | 71 Comment(s) | Filed in Spain

    Referencias (TrackBacks)

    URL de trackback de esta historia http://blojj.blogalia.com//trackbacks/9357

    Comentarios

    1
    De: Beliefnet Fecha: 2003-06-30 18:52

    http://www.beliefnet.com
    We are a multi-faith e-community designed to help you meet your own religious and spiritual needs -- in an interesting, captivating and engaging way.
    We are independent. We are not affiliated with a particular religion or spiritual movement.


    2
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-06-30 19:03

    Thanks for the note. I'll fix the story accordingly.


    3
    De: rvr Fecha: 2003-06-30 21:07

    JJ said: «The opposers have several reasons, ranging to their outright opposition to any kind of religious teaching in public schools, to the fact that religion has been given more hours».

    You forgot to mention the main reason: Spain is not a confesional country. By Constitution.


    4
    De: rvr Fecha: 2003-06-30 22:28

    «But you mistake "aconfessional" for "laic"». Did I said that?

    Artículo 16 3. Ninguna confesión tendrá carácter estatal.


    5
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-06-30 23:41

    Aconfessional: the state has no preference for any religion.
    Laic: the state does not have any relation with any organized religion.
    But, since we all seem to be spanish constitution experts, quite close to the article you mention, we find this one:
    Artículo 16
    1. Se garantiza la libertad ideológica, religiosa y de culto de los individuos y las comunidades sin más limitación, en sus manifestaciones, que la necesaria para el mantenimiento del orden público protegido por la ley.

    2. Nadie podrá ser obligado a declarar sobre su ideología, religión o creencias.

    3. Ninguna confesión tendrá carácter estatal. Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones.

    Hey! It's the same one you are mentioning. Did you maybe forget to include the part of the article that was not "interesting" for your argument?
    I took it from here
    Can I say now that not supporting the religious beliefs of a majority of the spanish population is against the constitution? Or maybe the constitution is only convenient if it supports your argument?


    6
    De: rvr Fecha: 2003-07-01 06:21

    1. Te repito: ¿dónde he dicho que España es un país laico?

    2. No he sacado de contexto la parte de la Constitución que me interesa. La versión completa ya te la puse al completo en mi entrada del otro día.

    3. Non-sequitur. La Constitución no se puede contradecir en diferentes párrafos. Si ninguna religión puede tener caracter estatal, significa lo que significa. Y eso no quita con que se puedan mantener relaciones con las iglesias varias, pero limita la extensión de esas relaciones.

    4. Los derechos constitucionales no están sometidos a encuestas (cómo si no se sabe que el 80% de la población es católica).

    5. ¿Tú cómo interpretas que ninguna religión puede tener «carácter estatal»?


    7
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-07-01 06:26

    ¿Tú como interpretas esto?
    Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones
    ¿Como una contradicción?


    8
    De: rvr Fecha: 2003-07-01 07:31

    Ya te contesté en el punto 3.


    9
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-07-01 15:30

    Ah, perdón. Ya, españa no es un país confesional. Independientemente de que la constitución diga que Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones (lo pongo así, en negritas, que parece que le da más razón :-) )


    10
    De: Vendell Fecha: 2003-07-01 17:45

    Que España sea un estado democrático quiere decir que todos los españoles tienen derecho a elegir y a ser elegidos como representantes de sus conciudadanos en las instituciones democráticas(salvo sentencia judicial).

    Que España sea un estado aconfesional quiere decir que todos los españoles tienen derecho a profesar la religión que les venga en gana o ninguna si así lo desean. Esto quiere decir que ninguna religión, por mayoritaria que sea o por enraizada que esté en nuestra cultura, puede adquirir una posición de privilegio sobre otras religiones (o ausencia de las mismas). Y el nuevo reglamento educativo privilegia la educación cristiana (confesional o no) en la escuela pública. JJ, la verdad, no sé por qué le sorprende que muchos veamos una contradicción en esto.

    Dicho lo cual, a nadie sorprende la actitud de la jerarquía de la iglesia católica (obispos y ministros), dado que últimamente parece haber adoptado como seña de identidad esa cínica esquizofrenia sobre la libertad de culto. Donde son minoría, venga a reclamar el derecho a la libertad religiosa. Donde son mayoría, venga a imponer a todos su (a mi juicio) ramplona visión de la sociedad y el mundo.

    That´s all folks


    11
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-07-01 19:16

    Vendell: el nuevo reglamento deja de privilegiar la enseñanza no confesional (o no enseñanza, porque no se hacía nada). En ese sentido, es decir, relativo, pues sí, privilegia la enseñanza confesional. No privilegia la enseñanza cristiana, porque le estado tiene firmado convenio con 4 confesiones, y la verdad no sé cuales son, pero creo que una es el islam, y las otras 3 serán la católica, alguna denominación cristiana importante, y no sé cuál más.
    En cuanto a la imposición, no puedo estar más en desacuerdo contigo. Lo que dices es simplemente mentira, y una tergiversación de la realidad. Como opinión te la admito, pero no corresponde a la realidad. La realidad es que la decisión que ha tomado el gobierno está de acuerdo con la gente que lo ha votado (que es mayoría), con los acuerdos internacionales suscritos por gobiernos anteriores, con la legalidad vigente, con las encuestas, y con la realidad que es que el 80% elige, libremente, enseñanza católica en la escuela. Los únicos que están tratando de imponer su voluntad son los que opinan lo contrario.
    Y entre otras cosas, esa posición de privilegio está refrendada por la constitución, en lo que he puesto en negrita ahí arriba. ¿O ya no sirve la constitución, ahora que, aparentemente, está en contradicción con lo que se dice?


    12
    De: Vendell Fecha: 2003-07-02 02:25

    JJ, no sé que pasa que no entiendo su respuesta.Abandonaré por un instante mi sectarismo ateicida a ver si llegamos a un terreno común.

    1. ¿Es o no cierto que con el nuevo reglamento todos los estudiantes se verán obligatoriamente expuestos a la enseñanza de la religión, bien en su versión confesional o bien en una versión que descarta la fe en favor de los aspectos culturales de la religión?

    2 ¿Seguro que es mentira que la Iglesia Católica trata de imponer su visión de las cosas a toda la sociedad? Si no fuera así, ¿para qué carajo tendrían ningún interés en firmar acuerdo alguno con estados como el español? ¿A qué viene entonces esa insistencia para que también los escolares que no quieren estudiar catecismo tengan que asumir la enseñanza obligatoria del hecho religioso?

    Yo puedo mentir, pero la realidad no se tergiversa. La realidad es (Parmenides)


    13
    De: Vendell Fecha: 2003-07-02 02:27

    Y sí, por supuesto que la Constitución sirve, lo que no quiere decir que sea el único marco posible para la reflexión y que quizá debiera ser más explícita en lo concerniente a este asunto que, desde luego, no está cerrado.


    14
    De: JJ Fecha: 2003-07-02 03:07

    En respuesta a tu 13:
    1. Supongo que sí. ¿Me quieres explicar qué hay de malo en los aspectos culturales de la religión? ¿O que un profesor de historia o filosofía, con su propio criterio, lo explique? En mi instituto, desde luego, lo más confesional después de la religión era la historia y la filosofía.
    2. Pues sí, es mentira. No trata de imponerlo, trata de alcanzar los acuerdos que más le convengan a su aspecto espiritual y temporal, como es natural, y siempre dentro de la legalidad y del cumplimiento de los deseos de la gente.
    Y en cuanto a la 14, a mí me de la impresión de que es suficientemente explícita. Por el interés del hecho, lo repito: Los poderes públicos tendrán en cuenta las creencias religiosas de la sociedad española y mantendrán las consiguientes relaciones de cooperación con la Iglesia Católica y las demás confesiones Eso lo dice explícitamente la constitución.
    El asunto, evidentemente, no está cerrado, y admite mucha discusión. Probablemente lo más razonable sería que se revisaran los temarios de la alternativa a la religión para hacerlo menos confesional dentro de lo aconfesional; hasta ahí estoy de acuerdo con vosotros (bueno, o con alguien). Lo que ocurre es que, la oposición, situándose justamente enfrente, puede que haya cerrado el paso a ese tipo de consenso, que sería lo más razonable para ambas partes. Pero bueno, cada uno tiene su parte de culpa.
    Yo creo (y creo que es la primera vez que expreso de verdad mi opinión) es que todas las partes deberían de sentarse para hacer una asignatura, evaluable, alternativa a la religión confesional, y que fuera aceptable para todo el mundo.



    15
    De: Vendell Fecha: 2003-07-02 09:25

    JJ, gracias por su repuesta; sigo el hilo:

    1. Nada malo hay en estudiar los aspectos culturales de la religión... siempre que se destine una cantidad razonable de tiempo y que se haga desde una perspectiva no confesional, es decir, crítica (que no negativa).

    2. Aquí hemos aislado una clara discrepancia de opiniones. Yo si creo que la Iglesia Católica trata de imponernos su catálogo moral, ya sea a través de los acuerdos legítimos que Vd menciona o mediante maniobras de otro tipo, incluida la amenaza y la extorsión sentimental... muy humano todo, eso sí.

    3. Gracias por su sinceridad. Es una propuesta en la que trataré de profundizar en los próximos días con el mismo espíritu que Vd sugiere.


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    17
    De: Guido Quispitupa Paredes Fecha: 2008-12-22 14:58

    Ups.., perdon, quiero borrar todo mi mensaje anterior


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